U.S.S. Little rock Crew Member's
Oral History given by
Frank Palamara - ENS

U.S.S. Little Rock Association
ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM

Interviewee:  Frank Palamara (FP)

Interviewers:  Don Elliott (DE) & Don Schuld (DS)

Date - Location:   August 28, 2023 - Norfolk, VA

Click HERE to see YouTube Interview



Interview Transcript:

DE: We are here with Don Schuld and Don Elliott, to conduct an interview with Frank Palamara. The date is 28 August 2023; the time is 1:28 p.m.

DS: We are here at the Sheraton Hotel in Norfolk, Virginia. Frank is a crew member of CL-92. Quite honestly, we don't have many left and we're always delighted to record the histories of our significant members.

FP: Well, you know I am now 98 years old.

DS: Tell me where you were born.

FP: I was born in Brooklyn, New York on July 13, 1925. See, the math really does work.

DS: How about education? Where did you go to high school?

FP: I went to a boy's Catholic high school called Bishop McLaughlin High School. It probably was the best school I went to in my life because the Christian Brothers ran it. They were dedicated and so I got a good high school education.

DS: That, I assume, was in Brooklyn as well?

FP: Yes, it was.

DS: And, following graduation from high school, did you attend college directly?

FP: Well, I went into World War Two. I enlisted when I was 18 and they took me right away.

DS: And you reported aboard the USS Little Rock?

FP: No, I was in the Naval Air Corps program and I eventually hoped to become a Naval pilot. After, I think it was, six months in that program, they abandoned it. They had more pilots than they knew what to do with and so they put me into the line officer program. Nothing really happened – I was in "A" school and they just named it a different name.

DS: So, you went into the Navy as an enlisted person, did you not?

FP: Yes, and believe it or not I was an apprentice seaman. I wasn't even a two-striper. Yes, a one-striper, seaman recruit, that's what it was. Then, after eight months I was sent up to Middlebury College, in Middlebury, Vermont. There were about 400 or 500 men assigned to that school. I don't think they had the Navy in mind. I think what they were doing was giving me a college education. All the men in that program were eventually going to become officers. It was decided that I was going to become a recruit for shipboard assignment.

I was there for eight months but they still didn't know what to do with us, so they sent me to Williams College, in Williamstown, Massachusetts. I was there for four months. So, for one year I was in two colleges. They then were to send me to Notre Dame, the school where I would become an officer. I spent four months there, and on July 9, 1945, I became an Ensign.

Then they sent me back to New York – there were no assignments for me. They had no idea where to put me and I ended up in Astoria. (If you don't know where Astoria is, don't worry about it – it's probably the smallest place in the world). I was there in uniform. (Chuckles.)

After about four or five months they sent me down to Miami, where I was in another school for two weeks – and that's when they decided they were going to put me aboard the USS Little Rock.

I had had no leave for over a year, so they combined two weeks of leave with the assignment to the ship which was up near Boston. I got aboard the ship – the USS Little Rock – and I'll never forget – I was on an LCI with a coxswain. And LCI is nothing but a hole in the ground – it's a box.

This guy brings me up to the side of the ship – to an accommodation ladder. He got up close and we went down about five feet below it, then we came up about five feet above it. I took my bag, with everything I owned in life, and threw it over the railing of the brow that was going up to the deck, and I hoped it would not wind up in the sea because we were in deep water. It stayed and then I jumped off as we went down.

I ran up, went on deck – it was about seven or eight o'clock at night – dark as hell. Nobody even knows that I'm aboard. Nobody on watch. I don't know where to go. I found an open door and it turned out that it was the BOQ.

DS: So, you reported to what division.

FP: The gunnery division.

What happened was, the next morning – I had no idea where this ship was going to go – it sailed. We went out of the port and went to San Juan, Puerto Rico. Then we went to Trinidad. And then I ended up going across the Equator – got the s*** beat out of me. I had blood clots on both cheeks of my ass – that big around – I couldn't sit down for a month. (Laughter.)

DE: I didn't have them that big, but I got hit pretty hard, too. Some years later. (Laughter.)

FP: So, about maybe a month of fooling around on the north shore of South America the ship was assigned to go on to the other side of South America. So we actually circumnavigated South America. We went down around the Horn. I remember having the midnight watch – midnight to four in the morning – at the point where we were turning the corner and coming up on the other side of South America.

DE: Tricky waters down there.

FP: Well, it was. We were burying the bow.

DS: And it's no secret that you folks created a few waves down in South America during that cruise, didn't you?

FP: Yes, we did.

DS: I think history tells us that the Little Rock sailors had their share of getting in trouble and being bad boys.

FP: I spent a lot of time in police stations (laughs).

DE: Not because of what you did.

DS: Bailing out your men, huh?

FP: (Laughing.) Trying to get 20 or 30 guys out of jail.

DS: Several people who we've interviewed in previous years, who were also aboard during that time – one fellow, I've mentioned to you before – Lefty Loeffler – he, too, was a bad boy during the South American cruise and had to be rescued, as it were, from various police stations.

So, you finished the South American cruise…

FP: And I was discharged.

DS: When was your discharge?

FP: Good question. I'm not sure I remember that.

DS: So, sometime in '46.

FP: It was the Spring of '46 – it must have been April or May because I remember coming back to Brooklyn and the weather was cold – going from cold to hot for a couple of weeks, so it had to be Spring.

DS: You left the Navy, then, as an Ensign or a JG?

FP: I was an Ensign. About two months later I got a letter promoting me to JG and about three years later I got another letter promoting me to Senior Grade.

DS: So you went to a full Lieutenant?

FP: Yes.

DS: So you were separated from the Navy but not yet discharged, I would imagine – right?

FP: That's right.

DS: Because your discharge would have come later.

FP: That's correct.

DE: You were in the reserves then.

DS: So you're now out of the Navy. Do I understand you're now armed with a college degree?

FP: No, I didn't have a degree. I ended up going to St. John's University in Brooklyn and getting my degree – it was an accounting degree, actually. I became a CPA after I passed the New York State tests.

DS: And you went to work in that industry as a CPA?

FP: Yes.

DS: Did you remain as a CPA for a period of years?

FP: I'm still a CPA. I still write my $50-a-year check for the dues to continue to be a Certified Public Accountant in the State of New York.

DS: I take it you probably moved from one company to another.

FP: Oh, yes – about three or four times.

DS: What was the first corporation you worked for?

FP: Russ Brothers and Montgomery was a CPA firm. I needed to get the credentials to become a CPA and I worked with them for about five years. And then I passed the test.

One of the clients that I was assigned to hired me as their Comptroller. That was James Talcott, Inc. That firm was a factoring firm, which was nothing more than a business finance organization. We actually bought the receivables of the company's customers and guaranteed to free them from loss because we had the credit department which would check out the safety of those…

DS: How long did you work for Talcott?

FP: I worked for Talcott for almost ten years, and I became Comptroller of Talcott. And I moved from there to another company of similar activity, except it was ten times bigger. That was CIT Financial. I think it was bought by a bank – the company is still as it was except now it has a bank name – not CIT financial.

DS: You'll recall that I mentioned to you earlier, perhaps yesterday, that we have in the Naval Order a fellow by the name of Jonathan Mendes, a retired Marine Colonel. He was in the financial business in New York City. He was the one who structured the merger between Xerox and CIT. According to him that would have been the largest merger in history. So here you are working for CIT…what years would you think that would be?

FP: I was in my thirties.

DS: It was a coincidence that you were working for CIT at the very time Jonathan Mendes may very well have been structuring that merger. Jonathan will be 103 in November. So – how long did you spend with CIT?

FP: When I got my CPA certificate, I left CIT. And the reason I did was that I had an offer from a client of CIT. They needed a Comptroller, so I joined them and became Comptroller of James Talcott, which is a factoring company. Then I spent ten years with Talcott.

Then I was hired by CIT again. I was made president of the largest factoring company in the world – Meinhard Commercial Corporation. I spent, I think, two or three years there.

When I left there I went to another – it's hard to remember now. But the positions that I had were executive positions, moving from company to company.

DE: You used the term "factoring companies." I'm not familiar with that term. Could you help me out there?

FP: Sure. A factor is a company that buys the receivables of their clients on the day of the sale. And we actually checked the credit of the company that we're exposing ourselves to – se they were very safe since we had one of the best credit departments possible. Yeah – because that's all we did: we bought receivables.

DS: That involves discounting, I assume.

FP: Yeah. What would happen is: you own a company and you sell products. The product goes to innumerable customers. My company, the factor, checks the credit of everything you sell and either accepts it or rejects it – but the majority of the sales we would actually buy the receivables. So now we'd pay you, on day one, for the receivables, at a discount. That's how we made our money. Now, the risk that we took was the possibility that something could go wrong with those receivables. Sometimes you get into trouble and find out that you're factoring fictitious receivables.

DE: Did you have actuaries working at the time?

FP: Not really working in the company. We had access to them when things got tough. We could check credit every day, all year long, but there were some that got through the net – that's where we took a loss.

DS: So you're progressing now to the point where you would become Chief Operating Officer of the stock exchange?

FP: One of my best friends over these years was a commissioner of the SEC. He was one of the five commissioners of the SEC.

DE: That article that Frank Berglas sent me explains that in detail. The New York Times. You had gone to work for a company and you got selected to be number two at the "Big Board." That was in 1972.

FP: That's right.

DE: So, in 1972 you became COO?

FP: I became the Executive Vice President, Chief Operating Officer of the New York Stock Exchange. And the reason was that the man who hired me was a CPA and he had become a commissioner of the SEC. The opening came up at the stock exchange and he was being asked by the board of directors of the stock exchange to recommend someone to become the operating officer of the exchange. He had known me for 20 years.

DS: How long were you COO?

FP: I would say about five years.

DS: Now, in the meantime, you're building a family along the way and having children. I understand you do have eight children and, if memory serves, they have produced for you 30 grandchildren.

FP: That's correct.

DS: And they, in turn, have produced 32 great-grandchildren.

FP: (Chuckling.) That is correct.

DS: I'm not a genealogist but I have to say that might be a record of some sort (All laugh.)

FP: You're absolutely right.

DS: That's a lot and it must be an interesting time when it gets to be Christmas or birthdays. I can't imagine how anyone would handle something like that.

FP: Well, I married Ginnie – both of us lost two spouses – and we met, and we were married and the first question she asked me was, "What do you do at Christmas?" She said, "Do you buy presents for everyone?" I said, "No, honey, I write a lot of checks." (Laughter.) And she said, "Oh, thank God. Now we can get married." She was never going to buy 70 presents for all those kids.

DE: My wife has a devil of time with seven, eight or nine.

DS: Have you ever had family reunions?

FP: Yes. I own a company now that is called The Rinx. It is a company that specializes in schoolboy ice hockey. I have two ice hockey rinks under one roof; I have a summer camp that I run for children that are anywhere from six years old up to 15 years of age.

DS: You special focus there?

FP: Not really. It concentrates on things that they can learn – physical things that they can learn – games of all kin

DS: you know – soccer, basketball and whatever. One of the problems for the people who live on Long Island is finding a place to safely put your children in the daytime, in the summertime. In the daytime in wintertime, they are safely in school and they come home to their parents and things are fairly normal.

But, when school closes, they have the kids, and they don't know what to do with them. So that's how we built a business. We have five branches. We have about $10 million of sales volume in that company.

DS: These are five camps, did you say?

FP: These would be camps, yes. In the summertime there were five camps. In the wintertime there were ice hockey rinks. And ice hockey programs.

DS: So they served two different purposes?

FP: Yes, the facilities accommodated camping. As a matter of fact, four of the camps we have are strictly ice hockey camps. The first one is the big one – we have 90 acres of property there. That's where we have camps that take care of swimming, archery – there are about five or six different things that we use…

DS: Are these all on Long Island?

FP: Yes, a little town called Hauppauge. They're day camps. This past season we had 900 children in those camps. Three swimming pools.

DS: I assume that your family members are involved in the operations.

FP: Oh, yes. I'm not active in management anymore. My son runs the show. But I have a quarterly board of directors meeting and that keeps me involved with what's going on. If there is anything in particular that is different or needs money, he comes to me.

DS: That's suggesting that you kinda still have your hands on the purse strings. (Laughs.)

FP: That's right. But the company is credit worthy. Citibank gives us the cash we need in order to run all of the businesses. We have five different locations where we have camps and also ice hockey.

DS: Do they all have the same name, these camps?

FP: Yes, The Rinx.

DS: It's not publicly traded?

FP: No, no. I own it. My son doesn't own it, I own it. But for all intents and purposes I make sure he knows everything that's going on from my side, and he lets me know everything that's going on from his side – so we end up not making any mistakes.

DS: My earlier question was about family gatherings. Do you have them?

FP: Yes, at the rinks. We just had one recently – Poppapalooza.

DS: That's the family gathering?

FP: Yes. About 60 or 70 turned out. They can't all make it.

DE: They've got lives, too.

FP: Exactly. A lot of them go away to summer houses, other locations in the summertime. It's very hard to get them all together and my birthday is July 13th.

DS: Have any of your children had an opportunity to serve in the military?

FP: No. I have two boys and six girls and the two boys have never had any military. Of course, the girls are married and none of their spouses have ever ended up in the military so no military involvement of any sort.

DE: Not with the grandkids, either?

FP: No.

DS: Six girls – that's a lot of weddings.

FP: Yeah (Laughter.)

DS: And a lot of college educations.

FP: That's right – a lot of college educations.

DS: Did any of them go to your Alma Mater?

DE: Any go to Notre Dame?

FP: No. None of my children or grandchildren have ever gone to any schools that I went to when I was growing up.

DE: You said you went to Brooklyn?

FP: I lived in Brooklyn for the first six or seven years of my marriage – my first marriage – and then we moved out to Long Island. All of my children were born and went to schools on Long Island. Brooklyn was a thing of the past.

They all went to college but none of them went to any colleges…I went to St. John's University. We had an office building that was 21 stories high and that was the college. And the campus was the concrete outside the front door of the building. I used to bring them to that location because I sent them to colleges that all had huge campuses – the kind of things that are normal for most colleges that are not in the city. Since I went to college in the city, the only way I could show them where I went to college is to drive down to Hoyt and Schermerhorn Street, stop the car, and point to the entrance to a building 20 stories high – that's where I went to college.

My college was on the fifth, sixth and seventh floors of that building; the law school was up above; the school of arts was somewhere in that collection of spaces – and that's where the college was.

Now the college, at the same time as that was going on, owned a golf course in Queens. Until they could get the money that they needed to stop the school in that building and make St. John's University on that 90 acres of property where the golf course was, the college itself went from an office building to a campus. And that's where it is now.

DS: Other than business – do you have any hobbies of any sort? You live on Long Island. Do you sail?

FP: I'm 98 years old. I have been a boater and I have had – I think you could safely say they were yachts. I started with a 28-footer and I went up to a 36-footer and then I ended up with a 60-footer. Eventually I lived, in the summertime, on the boat. I didn't have a house on land. My first wife and my second wife we actually lived on the boat that I owned in the summertime – staring sometime in April and end up in September/October. It was a great life.

DS: Do you still have a boat?

FP: I don't, no. It's too much to keep a boat.

DE: Very needy.

FP: I'm a licensed Coast Guard captain.

DE: And that 60-footer was your last one?

FP: Yes.

DS: That 60-footer must have required something more than just a captain, did it not?

FP: No, I was the captain. I had my license.

DS: No assistants?

FP: No, none at all. One day we were sailing from New England, and we were coming down into Long Island Sound. It was just my wife and myself on a 60-footer, and I looked at her and I said, "Are you frightened sailing with me on these trips that we make?" She said, "No." I said, "That surprises me." She said, "I don't know why you're surprised. You're the best I could possibly find to do this." I just knew what I was doing. Well, a lot of it I learned in the U. S. Navy.

DE: So, was that a sailboat?

FP: No, it was a powerboat. I never had a sailboat.

DS: You could sleep a few people on a 60-footer.

FP: Oh, yes. We had a forward cabin where we could have double occupancy. We had amidships a couch that would pull out and become a bed. Then we had the master stateroom. There was a shower attached to it, and one attached to the forward stateroom – so we had, really, plenty of room. I ended up with a place to store vegetables and canned goods in a compartment that pulled out of the wall. It was about 4 ½ to 5 feet wide, ceiling to floor – on two rails. We would pull it out and there was everything we needed.

DS: When did you get rid of that vessel?

FP: About 10, maybe 12 years ago.

DS: Pretty pricy today to pull into a dock and say, "Fill 'er up," eh?

FP: It was 500 gallons. That was 20 years ago – 2003. I have an apartment now, in Phoenix. It's a condo. We live on the fifth floor of 17 floors high.

DS: You've been to the Little Rock reunion previously. How many reunions have you been to, can you recall?

FP: No, I can't recall. I would say three.

DS: When was your first?

FP: I'm really guessing now. I guess 10 years ago. In Buffalo.

DS: You must have enjoyed it because you've returned.

FP: Oh, I love it.

DS: At these reunions have you had the occasion to run into someone who you served with? Has that happened for you? I ask because so many of us, Don and myself, when we return to a reunion, we always know that we're going to be with people we know. There are people who sadly stay off by themselves. They don't know anyone and its incumbent upon us, as leaders of the organization, to walk over and say "Hi, my name is Don Elliott, I'm president of the Association…"

DE: Yes, I try to do that.

FP: I'm in that class. I would be one of the people you would be talking to like that because I really haven't had a direct exposure to the organization other than the occasional times when I went to the reunions. I was so busy in the jobs that I had that I didn't have the time I needed to do a lot of these reunions. Now at 98 years old Ginny and I can go anyplace we want and so I am much more active with this organization than I could have been in the past.

DS: Our membership touches a broad spectrum of people – that is to say, people that have wealth, such as yourself. We had a fellow named Lyle Swatek who came from Wisconsin. Lyle owned banks and restaurants and so forth and was very generous with his time…

DE: In the petroleum industry. He was president of a petroleum organization.

DS: Yes, on one occasion in assisting us with raising money he said, "Well, if a few people can raise $25,000 I'll match it. And, lo and behold, one evening at a reunion we raised that money so quickly it wasn't funny. Lyle, true to his word, followed through as well.

On the other side of that coin are people who, probably, struggle a little bit to deal with the finances of coming here. And there are those who don't come simply because they don't have the funds to do so. We have people who enjoyed fame. You saw that today with your sitting and chatting with Ray Mabus who went on to become the Secretary of the Navy. So, that's one of the interesting things about the Little Rock Association – it's such a broad experience from one who just looked at a gas station to one who becomes CEO of the New York Stock Exchange, and a lot of people in between. I always found that interesting.

We're particularly delighted to have the opportunity to speak with you today…

FP: Thank you very much.

DS: We're so appreciative of getting your words and thoughts now recorded, I trust. And, eventually, this will be transcribed and it will provide an opportunity for all to see. It'll go onto our website.

DE: We'd like to have your permission to post on our website.

FP: Yes. It's a true story, you know. No reason not to publish it.

DS: If you want to add anything, Frank, we'd be very pleased to hear it. Either about your experience in business; your experience in life; your feelings about this Association – we'd love to hear it. You come here – this is the third time for you, at least. So there must be something here for you that brings you back. You certainly could be doing something else.

FP: That's true – you're absolutely right. I think the most important thing that, in my mind, draws me to the reunions is the fact that it is made up of people who love the same things I do. When you think about it, how many of the members of this organization are actually active with boats or with things that have to do with the sea. This is where you find them.

DS: Yes – Don Elliott is a car maven. He drives a…

DE: I bought a new C8 2022 Corvette last year. Mid-engine Corvette; it's a totally different animal than anything I've ever driven.

FP: Wow, that's so great.

DE: Believe it or not it gets 495 horsepower. It's red mist metallic; all my cars are red. Does that tell you something? I want to be seen, first off.

FP: I love it.

DE: We have a Corvette club of about 130 members who live on the Cumberland Plateau of Tennessee. We drive and we're very active in the community. We donate to the community. We work with seniors to escort them in parades – veterans' parade we're gonna be in. I'm also past-president of the Chicago Association…

FP: Oh, my goodness.

DE: And – still involved.

DS: Do you belong to any service organizations? Rotary, Kiwanis – things of that nature?

FP: No – I never. I was part of the Coast Guard Auxiliary. As a matter of fact, I used to teach new boaters the basics that they needed to know to really be safe on the water. We'd run ten and twelve sessions in the summer time for them to become familiar with how to manage their boats safely. I don't do that anymore, but I did that for about 15 years of my life when I was younger. For me, being on the water and running a boat is second nature. I just know how to do it.

DS: Did you do any fishing off that boat?

FP: Oh, yes, I did. It has a cockpit at the stern. Not every boat was that way. My wife and I had not only fishing boats, but also live-aboards. There were two, three years there with my first wife – that's where we lived. In the winter we would put it up to storage until the spring and then the marina would get it ready for use – back in the water. That was my living quarters on the water.

DS: I had that same experience on a much, much smaller scale. I had a 24-foot patio boat. It held like 13 people. But, put it away in the winter. My boat was docked right in front of an Italian restaurant on Lake Hopatcong, in New Jersey. Always nice to just go to the restaurant and have some dinner – or go out first, have a couple of drinks while you cruised the lake. Then come back, pull it up and have dinner at the restaurant. But, like most boat owners say, the best two days are the day you bought it and the day you sold it.

FP: (Laughing.) That's right.

DE: Friends where I live have a pontoon boat. I live in Fairfield Glade, Tennessee. It's about a 12,500-acre resort with about 9,000 people. We've got five golf courses and 12 lakes.

FP: Oh, beautiful.

DE: It's a beautiful community. We have a HOA and our own private police department now – the largest private police department in Tennessee. Great friends – we have a dozen friends who like to drive and eat. I bought a smoker about 2 ½ years ago – so we have – I love the smoked brisket. I'll have 15, 18 people over.

FP: Beautiful. That's wonderful.

DS: Did you have the occasion to rub shoulders with any of the Mayors back in the day – Koch or those people?

FP: Not really, no. I have had people like that visit the Exchange. I've had movie stars – (chuckling) I can't remember the name of the movie star who has a son who is almost as famous as himself…

DS: I can think of a number. Kirk Douglas would be one, and Michael Douglas, his son.

FP: That's it. Kirk Douglas came to the stock exchange because he wanted to meet me as the Chief Operating Officer of the New York Stock Exchange. So, he came into my office and we spent about 20 minutes – and I'm trying to figure out what I'm doing here – who is this guy? I knew who he was…

DE: But, why?

FP: Why am I spending this 20 minutes when I had so much to do? But, that's what you do.

DE: Can't say "no."

FP: No, absolutely right. There's an organization in Philadelphia that's called the Academy of Vocal Arts. These people teach opera voices, for careers in opera. Most of the young people who are taught there eventually end up as professional opera singers – in all the ranges, from soprano to tenor to bass – and they give concerts and other performances, in the Philadelphia area, mostly. I was the Chief Operating Officer of the Academy of Vocal Arts for about 10 years, back in the olden days. I haven't done that in a long while, since I moved out of Philadelphia.

DS: Well, I think I've run out of questions, although I suppose we could go on for hours. So, we'll see that this is transcribed and Don will reach out to me and we'll do whatever editing is necessary. We look forward to having it on the website and maybe we can get it in print and send you a copy.

DE: Frank, thank you so much.

FP: Thank you.

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